Interview with Richard Dawkins
Richard Dawkins is a British biologist and popularizer of science. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford.
Richard Dawkins’ Swan Song
Contents
Max Raskin: You called your current tour around the U.S. your “swan song,” so I wanted to talk with you a little bit about aging. Your dad lived to be 95. You wrote this phrase about him, “He learned to laugh at his infirmities with the benign cheerfulness that often deserts the very old.”
Is that you too? Are you approaching things that way?
Richard Dawkins: Well, first of all, my mother also approached it in that way — up to the age of 102 when she died.
I suppose so. I don't feel that old. I feel about 35, I suppose, mentally. Not 18. I think better than 18. Physically, I feel old, of course.
I can enjoy what I'm doing, enjoy life, and enjoy carrying on working the way I always have.
MR: Maybe you think it's just genetics, but do you have any tricks or practices as you're getting older that keep you so productive?
RD: I don't have tricks. I think that the only thing is to have something interesting to write about. And I'm very fortunate in that I've got something very interesting to write about.
MR: My professor in law school, Richard Epstein, always used to say he would love to teach a class he knew nothing about so he could learn it — that the best way to learn something is to teach it.
Do you find yourself interested in new fields?
RD: Well, yes, I think there's a lot in what he says. I know that in the chemistry school at Oxford, for example, they make everybody — no matter what their special subject is within chemistry — everybody has to teach the first year, which is all of chemistry. And I never had to do that, but that would be a good discipline.
And yes, I do have to read up new stuff as I write. The new book I'm writing now, which is called Tales from Haeckel, I’m having to read up for each chapter.
MR: Ernst Haeckel?
RD: Yes, exactly. Yes.
MR: He was interesting.
RD: Yes, he is because he was an artist as well as a biologist.
MR: But for your brain though, do you do any exercise? People say don't drink. Are you fastidious about any rules?
RD: I have given up drinking quite recently. I never did drink very much, but I put it down altogether quite recently.
MR: Why?
RD: I suffer from restless leg syndrome, which is an unpleasant but non-threatening thing, and I have a superstition that maybe alcohol exacerbates it. I'm kind of experimentally trying that out.
MR: Do you experiment on yourself at all?
RD: I suppose that, in a mild sort of way, I experiment on myself but not nearly systematically enough. You're trying out things like giving up alcohol. I don't do that enough. And what you should do is do it for a week off, a week on, a random randomized schedule, but I don't do that.
MR: But what you really should do is create a many-worlds-style simulation of this universe where the only variable is Richard Dawkins’ drinking vel non.
RD: Yes, yes, yes. It is impractical, but yes.
MR: When you get a new idea, either for your book or something else, how do you capture it? Do you write it down in a notebook?
RD: I write it down usually on the computer and then lose it, but then perhaps it comes back in memory.
Clinton Dawkins
MR: You changed your name by deed poll. Why did you do that?
RD: Not a very big thing, really. Previously, I was Clinton Richard Dawkins. I have nothing against the name Clinton. I rather approve of it, actually, given its American associations.
However, Americans tend not to understand that it's possible to be known by your middle name and not by your first name. And so, I got fed up with filling in forms, coming to America, and then being addressed as Clinton, which I never have been ever in my life. And it just was a nuisance in practice.
MR: Who is your favorite American president throughout history?
RD: Oh, dear. I haven't thought about that. I suppose Kennedy, among American presidents — he gave great hope to the world. I suppose I would choose him as my favorite American president.
MR: Dawkins famously describes On the Origin of Species as “one long argument.” Sorry, not Dawkins. You’re Dawkins. Darwin. Darwin called it that.
When you're at dinner parties — because I'm assuming you're a social person — do people want to argue with you about God and atheism? And, if so, what do you do?
RD: I hope not.
Occasionally they do, which I think is not very helpful. I rather dislike the thought, because I bother to speak out about atheism when the occasion arises. Somehow people identify me, label me, with that — actually, just about every scientist you ever meet is an atheist, but they don't talk about it. And so, the question wouldn't arise. And it shouldn't arise with me either.
And I have occasionally been tackled at dinner parties, and I tend to rather brush it off.
Popular Popularizer
MR: Who is your favorite science popularizer? Feynman? Huxley?
RD: I suppose Carl Sagan.
MR: Did you ever meet?
RD: Yes. I was not friends with him — I just met him at a conference rather briefly.
MR: For better or worse, you are thought of as a popularizer of science and a public intellectual. Do you wish you were just known as a scientist? Do you have any thoughts about that?
RD: I don't wish that. What I do wish is that more scientists would write for a wider audience rather than just writing for their own rather narrow circle of professional colleagues. I think you actually can clarify your own thoughts in your own mind if you write for a general audience. And I think it would be a good idea if more scientists did that.
I like to think that several of my books can be read with profit by professional scientists as well as by the general public.
MR: I think Hume or Rutherford are misattributed as saying, “if you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it.”
RD: I agree. And I think that's a very good way to put it. I can't remember if it was actually Hume who said that, but somebody said it, and it needed to be said.
MR: Since you’re writing about Haeckel — zoology is an inherently popular thing. People like animals. Do you feel like you’re in that David Attenborough mold?
RD: Well, people like animals for different reasons. And I like animals for the kind of cuddly reason, too. But I also like animals because they are amazing phenomena — amazingly complex — and the product of an amazing process, which is Darwinian evolution.
I hugely admire David Attenborough, but he also is interested, as a scientist, in all aspects of natural history.
MR: I mean he was also a real popularizer…
RD: Well, he was. He was known as the German Darwin. He was Darwin's greatest champion in Germany. I think possibly even in continental Europe.
And he got various things wrong. He was a great champion of the idea that “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.” The idea that the animal climbs up his own family tree. He loved that, and he pushed it far too far.
He met Darwin.
MR: Do you know Quine?
RD: The philosopher?
MR: Yeah — he has this funny quote at the beginning of his book — “Ontology recapitulates philology.”
RD: I didn't know that. That's good.
MR: Isn't that funny?
RD: Yes.
MR: I made a joke about that once — “oncology recapitulates pharmacology.”
RD: Right. We'll try and cap that one. Yes. Very good.
MR: I don't think anyone's going to like that joke.
RD: Well, they have to know the original, which not many people do.
MR: And then they have to know the original original.
RD: Yes.
Monty Python vs. Don Rickles
MR: I have to ask you about Douglas Adams. Were you friends with him?
RD: I was, yes. He was a lovely man, and I loved knowing him. I greatly miss him.
I first met him because I wrote a fan letter. I think it was the only fan letter I've ever written.
MR: Really?
RD: Yes. It was not actually The Hitchhiker's Guide. It was Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, which I read and then turned right back to page one and read it right the way through again. Immediately wrote him a fan letter. And he replied with a fan letter back, actually. He invited me to meet in London. I went to his house in London, and I knocked on the door. I was not prepared for his gigantic size. I mean, he was nearer seven foot than six foot tall.
MR: How tall are you?
RD: I'm not very tall. I'm five foot nine, five foot eight. That kind of thing. And so, when this huge man came to the door laughing, because I think he was already laughing in anticipation of my reaction. He always laughed at his own jokes, which is very endearing. Comedians are not supposed to laugh at their own jokes, but I think it's very endearing. And he did.
MR: Were you a fan of the BBC Radio’s Hitchhiker's Guide?
RD: Yes. I was. But not of the television version. I think I never saw the video version. Only the radio version.
I think I prefer to make my own images from the words.
MR: Are you a movie person, generally, or no?
RD: Not in the cinema, but on Netflix or that kind of thing.
MR: I have to tell you, I don't like British humor. I don't like Monty Python. I don't find any of that particularly funny.
RD: Really?
MR: Yeah.
RD: I love it.
MR: You famously said you’re a cultural Anglican — and I’ll ask you about that later. But do you find Monty Python funny?
RD: Very. Yes. I love it.
MR: You do?
RD: I'm curious why you don't.
MR: Do you know Don Rickles?
RD: No.
MR: The comedian?
RD: No, I don't.
MR: Do you know Chris Rock?
RD: No.
MR: Wow.
You really are very British.
RD: I suppose I am. Are those American comedians?
MR: Yeah. Don Rickles was a famous American comedian from the '60s and '70s and '80s and ‘90s and actually 2000s. He was one of the greats of all time.
RD: Yes. I don't know him. When I lived in America, I did like Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, but I saw it more recently, and I found it rather dated. Whereas Monty Python, I think, doesn't date. And I love it. I wonder why you don't like it.
MR: Well, the main reason is it's not funny, I would say.
RD: Well, I think it's extremely funny.
MR: I have a good reason, but I want to ask you questions.
RD: Alright.
A Most British Man
MR: Is there a religion whose adherents are the most fervent in trying to convert you? Anglicans?
RD: Certainly not Anglicans. No, they're the last people to do that.
MR: People must come up to you and try to save your soul, right?
RD: I suppose it would be evangelicals, but that's sort of pretty much what it means.
MR: By definition.
RD: Yes. Low church Protestant evangelicals from America. Or you meet them in the streets as well. I mean, they just come up to everyone in the streets.
MR: You've debated everyone. You probably debated God at one point.
In your opinion, who do you think has been the best apologist that you've debated? Just as a debater.
RD: I don't think I would rate any of them as very good.
I had about three encounters with the recent Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, and he I found the most difficult to argue with because he's so nice and so reasonable and takes your point even before you've made it. You would start with an argument, and he would finish your sentence for you and then just not accept the argument. I found him the most difficult.
But I wouldn't rate any particular debater that I've encountered as being especially devastating or skillful.
MR: Who is your favorite person to watch? Hitch? Dan Dennett? Do you ever watch videos on YouTube?
RD: Yes.
MR: Who do you like watching?
RD: Well, you mentioned two, Dan Dennett and Christopher Hitchens. They're both very good. I enjoy watching both of them enormously.
MR: Do you listen to any podcasts?
RD: Yes, sometimes. I probably can't reel off names.
MR: What are you reading right now?
RD: I'm binge-reading Arthur Hailey who takes the lid off things like hotels and airports. It’s just light relief.
I recently finished binge-reading Alexander McCall Smith, a Scottish writer who writes prodigiously…enormous numbers of books of very light comedy.
My favorite writers are P.G. Wodehouse and Evelyn Waugh.
MR: Yes, yes, yes. I'm going to just say this, and don't take this the wrong way: You really are the most British person I've ever met in my real life.
RD: I'll take that.
Richard Dawkins on Acid
MR: You were at Berkeley at a pretty heady time, right?
RD: Yes. I was there from '67 to '69, which was after the Free Speech Movement but during the Vietnam War. And so, I got a lot of that.
MR: Two questions that are just totally unimportant, but I'm interested. Number one: Did you ever know Tom Nagel at Berkeley?
RD: No.
MR: And then the second one is: Did you ever see the Grateful Dead?
RD: No. Isn't that a rock group?
MR: Yes.
That would be as if I were to say to you, “Charles Darwin — he was a scientist, right?
RD: I see. Got it. All right. Yes.
MR: Did you ever use psychedelics in your life?
RD: No, I didn’t. And I'm rather disappointed nobody ever offered me any, or I never really came upon that culture.
MR: Would you do some today?
RD: I'm thinking of it…I have a friend who's sort of offering to steward me through a trip.
MR: Were you a fan of Aldous Huxley?
RD: Yes.
MR: Was he related to Thomas Huxley?
RD: Yes. Grandson.
MR: Oh, really?
RD: Yes.
MR: Who do you like better?
RD: Well, they're very different, obviously. Thomas Huxley had three very famous grandsons: Julian, the zoologist, who was a full brother to Aldous. Aldous is his younger brother. And then he had a second family who were much younger. Andrew was a much younger son of Leonard Huxley, who was Thomas' son. Andrew won the Nobel Prize in Physiology for discovering how the nerve impulse works.
It's a very, very talented family, indeed.
Richard Dawkins Doesn’t Believe in God
MR: You’ve called yourself a “cultural Anglican” and I think a bunch of people thought that's the first step for him becoming religious.
RD: Absolute nonsense. I mean, I've always been a cultural Anglican because I was brought up in Anglican schools, and so I know the hymns and the psalms and the Bible.
MR: Do you have a favorite hymn or psalm?
RD: I suppose, “The Lord is my shepherd.” Psalm 23.
MR: I can say it all in Hebrew. I’m not bragging or anything.
RD: And hymn: it would depend on my favorite hymn tunes. “Hold the Fort.” That kind of thing.
But I do want to emphasize — if I said in an interview that I'm a cultural Anglican, a cultural Christian, it means absolutely nothing as far as religious belief is concerned.
MR: Yes, I’m assuming this is not the interview where you admit to believing in God.
RD: Absolutely not. I totally don't believe. But as to being a cultural Christian, that is a fact. It's not a matter of belief. It's a simple fact about my upbringing. Just like saying I'm an Englishman.
MR: But let's say you take acid, and you discover that there's a God or something like this, would you give the scoop? Can I get the scoop and publish it?
RD: It's not going to happen.
MR: What's the downside of you promising me the scoop?
RD: Why should I give it to you?
MR: Because it's not going to happen.
RD: Fair enough. But I could give it to somebody else for the same reason. I could give it to the Archbishop of Canterbury.
MR: When I think about culture I think about food. Is there any Anglican food?
RD: No, no, no, no, no. Nothing like that.
MR: Do you binge-watch ever?
RD: Yes, in the sense of getting hold of a serial.
MR: What's the last show you binge-watched?
RD: I can't remember what the last one was. One that I have enjoyed watching is Upstairs, Downstairs, which is set in Edwardian England…
MR: …oh my God…
RD: …and it is a contrast between sort of aristocrats upstairs and their servants downstairs and the interactions between them.
MR: …it’s a joke how British you are. Did you ever watch The Sopranos?
RD: No. I did watch a fictionalized version of the Nixon White House. It was called Washington Behind Closed Doors. I thought that was very good. The West Wing. And ER.
MR: I watched that all when I was studying for the bar exam. And then I went down the Grand Canyon instead of studying for the bar exam.
Oxford
MR: Oxford is your haunt, right?
RD: Yes.
MR: Someone who has never been to Oxford — where is a place you recommend they either eat or go drink? What’s the most Oxford place?
RD: I suppose you would have to say The Eagle and Child. The Eagle and Child is a pub, and it's where the so-called Inklings used to meet. That was C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and that crowd. They used to meet there to read to each other about their latest books.
MR: Is there any way I could be a big professor at Oxford or something?
RD: Well, it is a university which recruits its faculty in the same way as any other university. You'd be rigorously vetted and interviewed and your papers read.
MR: Intellectually I know they’d want me, but do people from New Jersey do well in Oxford or is it like a fish out of water?
RD: It doesn’t have to be New Jersey — take America generally — there are plenty of Americans in Oxford.
MR: But someone like Richard Feynman. Would he play well in Oxford?
RD: He certainly would because he was a genius. And any university would be proud to have him. And yes, he was a bit of a loudmouth, I suppose. In a good way.
MR: Who’s the one who’s alive — Crick is alive, right?
RD: No, Crick is dead. Watson is alive.
MR: I read that book, The Double Helix. It's a fun book.
RD: Yes.
MR: Do those people stick out there?
Because you're very British…
RD: …yes.
MR: …and I imagine a lot of the people there are very British.
RD: Yes.
But there are quite a few Americans as well. I think Watson, whom I know, by the way — I think that he fitted in in Cambridge, in a sort of a way, quite well. I think he rather enjoyed his time in Cambridge.
MR: If you think I should go, then I'll go.
RD: If you can get in, yes.
MR: Will you write one of my letters of recommendation?
RD: I don't know you well enough.
MR: I'll send you my papers. You'll read them. You'll get a kick out of them. They're good.
The Godfather of Memes
MR: I want to ask you about memes. You seem to be very humble about creating the term “meme.”
RD: And I hope I'm reasonably humble generally, but yes.
MR: But you did create it, right?
RD: It's in the last chapter of the first edition of The Selfish Gene.
MR: Why are you not more protective of it? If I created a word like that, and people used it everywhere, I'd probably try to charge them for it, first of all.
RD: You're a lawyer.
MR: But in all seriousness, you've also distanced yourself from the memetic theory. Are you interested in that? Or is it too weird?
RD: I am. I mean, I thought I coined the word mimetic, but maybe somebody else did as well. I'm interested in the theory of memetics.
MR: Then let me ask you a stupid question: Do people send you memes over text?
RD: Well, by “meme” there, you mean a picture with text written on it?
MR: Yes. Not the smart person way of saying “meme.”
RD: I mean, I see them on the Internet sometimes, but that's not really what “meme” means.
MR: But do people text you memes? Do you text people memes? “Memes” not in the correct way.
RD: I occasionally see them, and once in a while I send them on.
MR: Really?
RD: Yes.
MR: I think in one of your lectures you referenced the xkcd comic, “Someone is wrong on the Internet.”
RD: Yes. That's rather good.
MR: You say you have a first edition of On the Origin of Species.
RD: Yes.
MR: Do you collect anything?
RD: Not really. I sometimes think I would like to collect first editions, and that is one first edition which I have which could form the nucleus of a collection of first editions, but I don't have very many.
MR: Have you used ChatGPT?
RD: Yes.
MR: Do you use it regularly?
RD: Not regularly. I have experimented just to see what it's like and was immensely impressed. I think that the ability of ChatGPT to simulate an intelligent human making conversation with you is uncanny. It's just amazing.
MR: Do you think it's passed the Turing test?
RD: Yes, I think I do. I still don't think it's conscious, though. What Turing originally meant by the Turing test was a test of consciousness, and I don't think it is conscious.
MR: Do you think Americans pass the Turing test, in your eyes?
RD: Is that a joke?
MR: Yes.
RD: Yes.
MR: As my professor would say, “…in all respects but one.”
RD: Which is?
MR: You didn't laugh.
RD: Well.
I kind of wasn't sure whether you meant it as a joke or not.
AI and the Afterlife
MR: One of the analogies that you used once for natural selection is that instead of monkeys pounding away at typewriters coming up with Shakespeare, there are monkeys pounding away at typewriters, but each time they get a correct letter, it stays in. And so you see how much quicker the program will yield something reasonable if there's a selection mechanism. Correct?
RD: Yes.
MR: Do you think about that in terms of artificial intelligence and your views about the future of technology? Do you think things are going to really start accelerating?
RD: Yes, but I don't think the monkey's typewriter is a very helpful analogy there. I think that we are on the threshold of an amazing leap forward because of artificial intelligence as it now is.
MR: And my last question is about consciousness. I asked you about The Sopranos, and now I'm asking you about consciousness. You are a materialist, correct?
RD: Yes.
MR: Do you have any thoughts about brain uploading and consciousness outside of the body through technological means?
RD: In a science fiction way, thinking about the distant future, I think it is a possibility. I couldn't rule it out. And I'm interested and curious to think about that kind of thing, but that's all.
MR: And you don't believe in an afterlife, correct?
RD: Of course I don't.
MR: I don’t think it’s polite to ask British people this personal question, but I always ask my guests if they floss.
RD: I do.
MR: Every day?
RD: Yes.
MR: If you have more time, I have more questions, but I'm assuming you want to get going.
RD: Well, you keep saying this is your last question. You said that about 10 times.
MR: That's how I get you to stick around.