Interview with David Thompson
David Thompson is an American lawyer and the managing partner of Cooper & Kirk.
Cooper & Kirk & Cruz & Cotton & Brand & Francisco…
Contents
Max Raskin: Cooper Kirk has just an amazing reputation for hiring. Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, right?
David Thompson: So the first one we hired was Ted Cruz. The second lawyer we hired was Noel Francisco, the Solicitor General under President Trump. Then we hired Rachel Brand, who's now the top lawyer at Walmart and was the Associate Attorney General, and then we hired Tom Cotton. And my kids always say to me, "Dad, all the people you hired went on to make something of themselves. Why are you still sitting in the same office?"
Some people say, "Well, the key to our success is our people." But in the law business, that's really true. If you don't have a great team, you really don't have anything. And so from the very beginning, Chuck asked me to lead up the hiring, and I have done all the hiring for the last 27 years.
We started off focusing on conservative kids at Harvard. That was a niche that I was comfortable and familiar with and where we thought we had a recruiting advantage. And now we've expanded to Yale Law School too, so we have conservatives from Harvard and Yale. And it's really been a very beneficial process. And we focus on 1L's because we're a small firm. When we started, we had five lawyers, now we have closer to 25 lawyers. But we weren't in a position to make offers because we didn't have a crystal ball if someone was going to get a couple of clerkships…that's four years out. And so we thought, “Look, let's hire them as 1L's. We'll get the pick of the litter, we'll pay them like their 2L summers and we'll be able to get the best kids in the country.” And we've been able to do that for the last 27 years.
MR: When you look at a resume, what's the first thing you look at?
DT: Well, we look to see how they're doing academically. That's very important. Number one — they have to be really, really smart or they're not going to fit in at Cooper & Kirk. Number two — we want people who share our ideological passion, who are going to be excited about the types of cases we have. We have nothing but respect for our friends on the other side of the ideological divide, but we want people who are excited and wake up and who are fired up to work on the cases we're working on and on the side of the cases that we're working on.
And then we want people who are good people. We now have, at any given time, five or six alums at Harvard or Yale Law School, and we ask them, "Hey, who are the 1L’s who fit in and seem like good people?" So those are the things we look at. And then the writing sample is absolutely critical because there are plenty of really smart kids who meet the other criteria. But in terms of what really distinguishes someone from the pack is can they turn around a great brief at the first try. And some people have that skill and most people don't.
MR: Who taught you how to write?
DT: Really, Chuck [Cooper]. I didn't have a clerkship and I thought I was going to be a tax lawyer. I worked in a corporate firm in New York City for four months, and then I quit. I then called Chuck and I said, "Can you forgive me for the errors of my ways?" And he said, "Yes." And we've been working together for 28 years.
Chuck is a beautiful writer. When Chuck was in law school, he would jog and listen to Shakespeare. And so he just has an incredible command of the language. So he's really the one who taught me how to write.
MR: What do you jog and listen to?
DT: I don't jog. I do walk lot. I average close to 15,000 steps a day, but it's a lot of conference calls that I'm walking to. And then a few podcasts I do like. This American Life is my favorite podcast.
MR: How do you think about keeping someone for a long time?
DT: We don't worry about that, Max. Our view is we want to treat people right. I can't really think of a time where we've lost someone to a competitor where somebody left and said, "I don't like Cooper & Kirk, and I’m going to go to another firm that's substantially doing what you're doing." But we've lost people all the time to government service, for example. One of the things that attracts people to our practice is a concern over public policy, a passion for public policy.
And so it's hardly surprising that they come to Cooper & Kirk and when there's a George W. Bush administration, Rachel Brand and Noel Francisco go into the White House Counsel’s Office. And that's something we've always said to our people. "Look, we want to know what your passions are, your goals are, and we will do everything in our power to help you fulfill those dreams." And they know that's true but sometimes it's painful. These folks are extremely talented, and we've become good friends with them. But our mantra is to try to put their desires first and that seems to be working for us.
MR: And why have you stayed with the firm?
DT: A number of reasons. Number one — we have a great docket. There's not a lawyer I know, and I would include judges in this, that has a more interesting mix of cases. Right now, I'm involved in almost 70 cases, Second Amendment cases, First Amendment cases, property rights cases, cases against TikTok, voting rights cases. I'm just blessed to have this incredibly interesting docket.
General Patton, Esq.
MR: Let me ask my key question that I want to ask you: You have so much in your head, you have to keep so many details, so many cases, so many people, so much. How do you organize your life?
DT: Justice Story said, "The law is a jealous mistress." And he was right. I'm an empty nester. My children are out of the house now.
MR: I mean more how do you organize your professional life to keep track of everything?
DT: Well, I've got a team on every case that I'm working on. I have a chief lieutenant, and so they're really the General Patton of the operation, making the rubble bounce on our enemies.
At this point I'm more of an Omar Bradley-type of character. I am familiar, of course, with everything that is important that relates to the strategy. And then of course when I step to the podium, I have to know every detail relating to the case and I do. So it's really just a matter of looking at what's going on that week, what's hot, what attention has to be paid to? And that's what I focus on.
MR: As a technical matter, what do you use? Notebooks? Voices memos?
DT: No, not really. I don't. It's mostly in my head and I'm on email a lot.
MR: What about for scheduling?
DT: Just Microsoft Outlook.
MR: If you look at your calendar is it a scary thing or do you block out times for yourself?
DT: It depends. Today is a day that's very busy because I've got a number of things I'm doing. Number one — I'm obviously running and supervising all the cases that are under my purview. Number two — I'm talking to new clients. So today I think I've got two conference calls that are an hour each with new clients who have reached out to me. Those are blocks of time that I have to allocate time to. And then of course there's the running the firm as the managing partner and the recruiting. So there are a lot of things moving around.
Tesla and Pickleball
MR: You mentioned Omar Bradley, they called him the G.I. General in contradistinction with Patton, who famously had Ivory-handled revolvers. Where’s your shirt from?
DT: I think this is a Charles Tyrwhitt shirt.
MR: Do you have quotidian or elevated tastes?
DT: Well, I have very idiosyncratic tastes. I love Waffle House, I love Chick-fil-A, and I love eating at the best restaurants in town and everything in between. On a culinary perspective I have a wide variety. But I try not to be ostentatious. Conspicuous consumption is not the way I was raised.
MR: Do you have anything that you're a feinschmecker about. Are you really into scotch, for instance?
DT: No, not really. As I get older, I try to become less and less materialistic. I don't drink really, and I don't really buy anything. The one splurge item I love is my Tesla Model S, and I love it because every time I get in, I'm taking money out of the pockets of Saudi Arabia and Iran and Vladimir Putin and Nicholas Maduro and it's fast and it's built in America and it drives itself. So that's the one material possession that I really do love.
MR: What about hobbies? Have you taken up any hobbies in the last 10 years?
DT: Pickleball is the one that I've taken up recently, which is really fun. If you haven't played, it's somewhere in between tennis and ping pong.
I'm not a serious player, but it's just a fun sport. And I'm spending my winter down in Naples, Florida with my wife and the US Open of Pickleball is held at this facility not far from where we are, and there's 62 courts there. We go over two or three times a week and play pickup games.
Law Rules!
MR: You mentioned never clerked. If you could have clerked for any Supreme Court Justice, who would it have been? And if you could have clerked for any circuit court and district court judge.
DT: Well, I think Justice Scalia. So many of my friends clerked for him and had a great time. And so many of my younger friends clerked for then-Judge Alito on the third circuit. So that may be cheating.
On the district court, Dabney Frederick has just a sterling reputation now on the District of D.C. as does Judge Trevor McFadden. We've sent several of our young folks to them, and they have just had a fantastic experience because they're every bit as intellectual and focused on writing as their appellate colleagues. You get that aspect of the experience, but you also get to see trials, which I think is a very valuable experience for young lawyers.
MR: If you had to be a judge, would you be a district or appellate judge?
DT: I think I'd rather be a circuit judge in that it's a little bit more intellectual and you're getting reversed fewer times.
I might be better as a trial judge because I've done a lot of trials and I've seen, at this point in my career, the way different trial courts manage their dockets and there's certain things that work and there are other things that don't work.
MR: What advice would you give to young district court judges?
DT: I would say go to Judge Trevor McFadden's rules — he has extremely detailed rules. I think he borrowed these from somebody else, but they're very minute and they're excellent. For example, at a deposition, you're just allowed to say the word, "Objection," nothing else. Second of all, if you've got a discovery dispute, each side puts in a one-page document and then he gets on the phone with you the next day and he says he's happy to do it. And that keeps the mischief down when parties know they're going to have to go in front of the judge and he's going to be fair-minded about it. Those detailed rules to really cabin some of the bad behavior that you'll see some lawyers engage in. I highly recommend that.
MR: What’s the first movie or television show about the law that comes to mind?
DT: Well, I'm not really that interested in legal shows on the law, although I guess the one that I've seen in recent years that I really enjoyed was The Devil Next Door.
MR: About Demjanjuk? The guard at Sobibor?
DT: Yes. I thought that was fascinating.
But as a general matter, I have enough of the law, so I'm much more likely to watch Seinfeld or The Office, or Game of Thrones than I am to watch a show Law & Order, for example.
MR: Do you have a favorite Seinfeld episode?
DT: Well, I think Festivus is a classic…the airing of grievances, the feats of strength. So yes, I've memorized at this point many, many of the episodes.
MR: Who's your favorite comedian?
DT: I don't really have, apart from Seinfeld and The Office.
I would've said Woody Allen maybe 10 years ago, but then I saw, Allen v. Farrow.
MR: What’s your taste in music?
DT: I like classical music and I like Christian music as well. Christian rock, contemporary Christian rock.
MR: What classical music do you find yourself listening to right now?
DT: Well, I like most of Mozart, I enjoy that. Chopin’s piano concertos. Bach. I don't have particularly refined tastes with unusual pieces, but the standard repertoire of those three are the ones that I listen to the most.
Religion and Politics
MR: What does your religious practice look like?
DT: Well, so I grew up Episcopalian and about 20 years ago, I became a born-again Christian and went to McLean Bible Church, which was started by Lon Solomon. Well, I shouldn't say started. Lon came to the church in 1980 when it had about 50 people. And then by the time he left, there were 15,000 people a week coming to McLean Bible Church.
He’s of Jewish background, but he converted to Christianity, and he was a wonderful pastor and speaker and so I really enjoyed going to church at McLean Bible Church. Then during the pandemic, he retired, somebody new came. So we go to the Falls Church Anglican when we're in Washington, D.C., which is a wonderful church. And down here in Naples, we're a Covenant Church. So we go every week.
MR: Do you pray?
DT: Sure. We pray every night, pray before meals. So that is an important part of my identity, absolutely.
MR: And I'm assuming you believe in God?
DT: Absolutely, yes. I do.
MR: Do you believe in an afterlife?
DT: Yes, I do.
MR: And do you meditate at all?
DT: Well, not in any traditional sense. I'm thinking almost all the time. There's very little time during the day where I'm just vegging out. But no, I don't sit around just meditating.
MR: Where are some places that you've been that strike you as being formative in your life?
DT: I don't know about formative in my life. I did go to Europe when I was young, as a teenager. I lived in St. Andrews, Scotland for a summer, which was great reading Shakespeare in the morning at the university and playing golf in the afternoon. So that was fun. And then when I was a senior in high school, I spent a semester in living in Paris.
I spent a summer living in Vienna, Austria. I got a nice mix of different experiences in Western Europe, and I enjoyed that a lot. I had 13 years of French and six years of Latin and two years of German in college. I don't really use any of that in my professional life or even in my personal life. So you could regard that as not formative. But I do think particularly Latin is very much logic based. If you like doing Sudoku, if you're good at computer programming, you'll probably be good at Latin. So I enjoyed that and homeschooled both of my children in Latin too.
MR: What was your strategy for raising independent thinkers who aren't so independent that they flee their parents?
DT: Teach your children eternal values, arm them to be able to defend those values, and model those values to the best of your ability on a daily basis.
Gone to Pot
MR: Were you political from a young age?
DT: I became more political when I went to northeastern, liberal, establishment schools. I went to Groton School at the age of 14. And the teachers there were pretty uniformly liberal Democrats. And the more I listened to them, the less convinced I became of what they were saying. And then I went to Harvard, and I became even more conservative. And then I went to Harvard Law School, and I became more conservative. And it was just the more I listened to these arguments, they just did not make any sense to me, and I rejected them unequivocally.
MR: Was there anyone book that just flipped the switch for you or any thinker that flipped the switch for you?
DT: No. Look, I was raised in a conservative household. We didn't talk about politics, but we went to church every week. That was an important part of my upbringing — that faith tradition. That of course anchors you to tradition and truths that are eternal, number one. Number two — my dad hated drugs, so that was something that was pounded in my head. He didn't really like taxes either. I mean, of course he paid his taxes, but he didn't like that.
And he was much more of a Martin Luther King Jr. conservative. He felt like everyone should be treated irrespective of the color of their skin…that's the way I was raised. So when I got to school and I heard about all these quotas and preferences and giveaways to different groups, that was inconsistent with the way I was raised.
MR: What is your thought about libertarian/conservative split right now?
DT: Look, I'm not a libertarian. For example, I don't think marijuana is good. My understanding is not only is it a federal crime in all 50 states today, but I think that this is a shameful blot on America and the rule of law, the fact that it is a felony to be in that business and that the federal government has turned a blind eye to it. I think is a disgrace. I actually brought a suit under RICO against those in the marijuana industry. And I won summary judgment on liability in a RICO case. To my knowledge, I'm the only lawyer with my colleagues who have won a RICO case on summary judgment for liability. I said that this is the most open and notorious conspiracy since Al Capone was running Chicago.
And in any event, this is an issue where, no, I don't think people should be able to fry their brains. And so I am a social conservative, and that means sometimes the state is going to limit the choices that individuals have.