Interview with General Jim Mattis
Jim Mattis is a retired United States Marine Corps four-star general. He served as the 26th United States Secretary of Defense.
“The Tyranny of the Here and Now”
Contents
Max Raskin: From your reading lists as a commander, it’s clear that you were concerned with terror and have lots of recommendations on Islam and the Middle East. But as new threats emerge and evolve, how do you get up to speed and stay smart on them?
Jim Mattis: As a leader – whether you're a second lieutenant in the infantry or you're a four star commanding 250,000 U.S. and allied troops – you must take responsibility for your own personal understanding. You have to engage the right people, and it also involves a lot of reading. A historical framework will allow you to ask the right questions of the real experts – people who've lived with the subjects for a long time.
I also kept a member of the intelligence community with me for my last years as a four star and my time as Sec Def [Secretary of Defense]. Her job was to be in every meeting, look broadly at what we would discuss, and also to challenge any assumptions we made. That’s because oftentimes the problem as you come to grips with an emerging threat is that due to the unknowns you've made certain assumptions. So I had someone whose primary job was to raise her hand and say, “No, that assumption is no longer the case.”
As you try to plan ahead as a commander or Secretary of Defense, you try to look out for the person after next in your job, not just the next person. You’re playing the sentinel role. In that role, you have to make certain you have lines of communication coming in that are quite broad in their own way. You don't get sucked totally into the tyranny of the here and now and the “in” basket.
MR: As a practical matter, how do you create that space for yourself so you're not always responding to the next email?
JM: Just to confirm the validity of your question, I was sitting with General Ray Odierno, rest in peace. He became the chief staff of the army and was the commander in Iraq. The two of us were having dinner one night – I think I was the MARCENT [Marine Forces Central Command] Commander at that time and I'd been selected or nominated to go up to be a NATO Supreme Commander. I said, “Ray, what is the biggest deficiency among our four stars today?” And without a moment's hesitation, General Odierno said, “Lack of reflection.” He said we're overly focused on getting things done, but we’re now at the very rank when we need to do the most reflection. We're not making time for it because if we don't respond to certain things right away, given the speed of decision making today, we can spend six weeks undoing the damage of people who are largely operating in a strategy-free mode.
I thought about that because when I left active duty, I was out at Stanford at the Hoover Institution and George Schultz used to stop by my office. He was a World War II Marine and got out as a captain…but he was the senior Marine on campus, not me, the retired four star. He was one of only two men in our history to hold four cabinet-level posts.
We would talk every morning after his morning workout at age 97 – he made it to 100, God bless him. I asked him the very question you asked, because it was just something I was never able to do as much as I wanted, as much as I tried to prioritize reflective time.
He said once or twice a week as Secretary of State, he'd go out to his secretary and say, “Unless it's the president or my wife, no phone calls for the next two hours.” And then he would sit there with a blank pad of paper. He would not catch up on letters he owed or on emails or whatever it would be today. He just sat there with the blank paper saying, “What am I not doing? What am I missing? Where am I starting to feel uneasy?” And he would just use a couple hours reflecting. That’s discipline, and that discipline is critical to leaders.
MR: Why is it so critical?
JM: Because especially in the military, but probably in most government positions, you deal with crisis after crisis. You careen from one to another.
What makes a crisis a crisis is it's unpredictable. If you could predict it, you would've dealt with it, mitigated it, avoided it, whatever. And the people who are affected by a crisis are not in control. So you're in a race between time and knowledge.
Take COVID. Doctors, scientists, nurses are racing to figure out how it’s transmitted. How do you treat it? Can we make a vaccine? And so you make assumptions and those assumptions must reflect competence and experience because you don't have time to wait for good input.
MR: Did you have a similar practice to Schultz when you were either a commander or Secretary of Defense?
JM: Yes, and like I said, imperfectly. I didn't take enough time, but I made it a practice either on my long runs or sitting in the back of an airplane heading to the Middle East while people snoozed – I would take the time to do it.
I kept people around like the intelligence officer who challenged my assumptions. I also kept a deputy around who was a very open minded three-star Navy SEAL. He had many of the strengths I thought I perhaps didn't. As Dirty Harry said, “A man’s got to know his limitations.” So I tried to find people who backstopped me in the areas I was weak. By doing that, I didn't get bogged down into areas that required me to do more study. I knew I had somebody there that could do that aspect, and I listened to them, which saved me time when I could do some reflection, which often involves expanding the problem to solve it.
General Mozart
MR: Everyone knows that you're a reader, but I read your letter to your men on the eve of the 2003 Iraq invasion. Do you spend a lot of time with words and with thinking about how to present information in the proper way?
JM: The letter you're referring to is what goes down to the 18-year-olds carrying automatic rifles in a 23,000-man division of sailors and Marines. I would go to works of antiquity often – that’s my way of finding words to put my personal stamp on their heads and on their hearts so they know what I need them to do. I often take words from antiquity for that. “No better friend, no worse enemy than a U.S. Marine.” Stole that from a dead Roman. “First do no harm.” I took that one from the physician's oath. I have nothing unique. Everything I wrote should be considered plagiarism as I adopted their words when I could apply them to my situation.
As a leader, your number one responsibility is to define reality. Define reality, make very clear what the purpose, method, and end state are. If I were Mozart, and I'm no Mozart, what I would do is write a nice, strong first stanza. A lot of notes in there. Then I'd write a real strong closing stanza. And in between, I'd put in about one third of the notes that Mozart used, and then I'd leave the subordinates that I've coached the space for them to fill in two thirds of those notes. Knowing that all plans fall apart on contact with the enemy, they could fill in those notes because they knew what my purpose was. Once aligned understanding the end state, I wanted young Marines to have the opportunity to apply their own initiative and aggressiveness in carrying out the mission.
MR: There’s a phrase in there, “fight with a happy heart.” What does that mean?
JM: I went out to the Native American National Powwow once because we Marines were trying to hold onto our culture in a Department of Defense that was emphasizing more and more into non-military attributes. One of my guys was a full-blooded Native American who reminded me that the Native Americans, who I'd grown up alongside, had lost their religion, their land, their battles, and yet were trying to hang onto their culture.
In one of the talks at the Powwow, I heard about the Battle of the Little Bighorn via the Native American oral tradition. On the day the 7th Calvary rode into the valley of the Little Bighorn, Sitting Bull ran around telling the young guys to grab any horse, grab any weapon, and keep the soldiers out of the village. They knew right away from the guidons it was the 7th Cavalry, but they also knew what they were capable of doing. Sitting Bull told his lads to, “Fight with a happy heart.”
As a four star landing on the deck of a destroyer in the Persian Gulf or at a combat outpost in the Hindu Kush, I could tell you in 15 minutes if it was a happy crew or an unhappy crew. I wanted troops who actually looked forward to the fight because they had confidence in their leaders, confidence in the support, confidence in each other.
Gen. George Washington
MR: How do you build that affection?
JM: I copied methods from leaders and applied them my own way.
George Washington was one of the most competent and boring leaders I've ever studied, but I learned from his approach to the human element in leadership. He listened, learned, helped, and then led. And he would listen with the willingness to be persuaded, not just, “Thank you for telling me what you think” and going off as if it didn’t matter.
I would tell my American officers at CENTCOM that not all the good ideas come from the country with the most aircraft carriers. As you listen and learn, you look for a way to help. Listen, learn, help.
Washington at Valley Forge used his own money to buy socks and blankets for his freezing troops. On the battlefield he would move into the most dangerous position, bringing the force of his personality to hearten and bring out the manhood in his troops. Again: listen, learn, help.
Just an aside, I found I could command 40 Marines and sailors in an infantry platoon as a 21-year-old second lieutenant in about 10 minutes a day. The rest of the day I spent coaching. 35 years later, as a four star with 77 nations on my staff on U.S. Central Command, I found I could command it in about 10 minutes a day. As a lieutenant I coached young Marines and as a four star I coached admirals and generals. Leading is coaching.
MR: I want to ask you about the curiosity aspect of it. With so much information out there, who do you make sure to read or talk to?
JM: I would just say that almost everybody has a story. The desk clerk that checks you in at the hotel, the teacher who's teaching elementary school kids where I go to talk sometimes, the Gold Star Family that's lost what's most precious to them.
If you stay curious, it's very hard to be caught up in an intellectual straight jacket. I also use history a lot. Graham Allison is doing some great work up at Harvard. He's trying to restructure the study of history in our country as applied history. Think of what adding “applied” just did to your thinking about studying history, learning how to apply it.
Geronimo and Osama bin Laden
MR: What’s an example of applied history for you?
JM: The intel community found where Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan right in the early days, December 2001. As the intel people showed me that he in one of these two valleys, the example that struck me was the Geronimo Campaign by the U.S. Cavalry and what they did with the heliograph stations along the Southwest border so Geronimo couldn't move back and forth. And I knew immediately how I could kill Osama bin Laden.
Some things fell apart in the execution where we weren't given the go ahead, but you can see how you can apply something from the 1880s on the Southwest frontier to 2001 in central Asia.
MR: That's incredible. How does that actual insight pop into your head?
JM: Well, the commandant has a reading list for all new Marines, and then when you make corporal and sergeant, here's a new bunch of books. When you make general, there's a new list, too. Every rank equals more reading.
So what you have are mental models that you can call on. Depending on the rank of the Marine, you can pull a model out that they study and say, “Remember what happened there when they had that kind of situation? That’s not what we’re going to do. We’re going to do this.”
But it’s a variation on a theme – like Debussy’s Children’s Corner. History will not give you the answers, history will give you the questions to ask. And how you probe the question without antagonisms or creating adversary relationships can be very helpful.
MR: This was the second reference you made to music. Do you listen to classical music?
JM: Mostly I like both kinds of music – Country and Western. I listen to every form of music I can find. That’s not true – there’s a couple I don’t like, but I like classical. And a lot of Rock ‘n’ Roll.
When you’re a leader, you suddenly have to turn your back on the audience in order to create the harmony. As a young officer who coordinates Naval gunfire and aviation and mortars and artillery, in many ways I thought of myself saying – let's have a few more drums here, bring in the violin, and that sort of thing, using instruments as fire support. I mean it's a vicious harmony when we close in on the enemy. But music has often been an example to show me the spirit of people working together to create harmony.
“How am I doin’?”
MR: You’re obviously a very American person, but in your thought, it sounds like you try to transcend nationality and language, like music does. When you have to deal with so many different nationalities, how do you talk to people around the world?
JM: I'm from the West – I don’t trifle with people, and I won't be trifled with. I don't care if you're a president, general, prime minster, et cetera.
Let me give you an example – I went in to see a king who lit into me over something our president had done. He went on and after about five or 10 minutes, I finally just waved my arms. I said, “Your Majesty, your officers don't make policy, and you and I expect them to be loyal to you. I don't make policy, but President Obama is my president, and I remain loyal to him. I'm here to help you. Now, I need to know what your problems are because I'm going to stay loyal to President Obama but that is not going to inhibit me from inheriting every one of your problems.” I think what you do is you make sure you always walk in the other person's shoes, and they know that their problems are your problems, that you’re there to help them.
I was telling some 200 brand new Marine officers on Zoom yesterday that the president can commission you a second lieutenant and make you an officer and a gentleman or gentlelady, but only your troops are going to determine if you're a leader or not. You have to win your troops’ confidence, allies’ confidence, et cetera.
MR: Has there been any leader or figure you were particularly excited or giddy about meeting?
JM: I'm pretty excited about meeting most everybody. When I'd fly into countries, I'd always meet with our ambassador and chief of station, CIA chief, and then I'd go with them to meet with the head of state or whoever I was meeting with that day. But it also makes me pretty giddy to be able to find out something about the checkout lady at the supermarket.
MR: You’ll talk to the checkout lady?
JM: You ask everybody how they're doing. Or if you're in command, I like Mayor Koch's idea in New York. He wouldn't ask people how they were doing, he'd ask, “How am I doin’?” He knew he worked for them and wanted to know how they thought he was doing.
MR: Did you always have this quality?
JM: I hitchhiked around a lot from the time I was about 12 or 13 to about 20 going into the Marines on active duty.
Riding along in somebody’s car, you can pick up a lot if you ask what peoples’ concerns are. After I got out of the Marines, we were going to be meeting with the king of Jordan, who I already knew. But I just asked people, “What are your views? What do you think of him?” And from an intelligence officer in an Arab military in the Gulf to an IDF intelligence officer, and from the patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church to Palestinian girls going to Bethlehem University – from all of them, I heard, “He's a good man.” Now, first of all, how often do you hear of anybody being good in the Middle East? And then hear it from the IDF and Arab militaries, from religious leaders to young students? So pretty soon you can triangulate or quadrangulate or multiquadrangulate.
I've always kept alternate means of acquiring information – Wellington had them in the Peninsular Campaigns. The sons of nobles who came to him became his eyes officers. I called them Juliets because you never have a J company – you have Alpha Company, Bravo, Charlie, Delta – but you never have a J company.
These are my Juliet officers. If a company commander is getting shot at and has to maneuver himself to stay alive, calling for artillery support and medevac, what do you think is his lowest priority? Keeping me informed. So I kept other officers out there whose only job was to keep me informed.
MR: It’s like a palantír from The Lord of the Rings.
JM: It's called a focused telescope from Frederick the Great.
COD
MR: Which war have you read the most about?
JM: The amount of reading you've done on any one war is probably less important than what lessons you derive. Some things like the Finnish Winter War against Russia in 1940 can teach you more about the NATO experience, so you should study fighting that bears on your particular need.
Always be reading about how other people fight because you can learn a lot about ground warfare if you look at the way navies or air forces fight in their domains. Read broadly and then read deeply on a few areas that you think could bring the most challenges to your form of leadership and your comfort zone.
An example would be certainly read about the Napoleon campaign. Read about Wellington. Read about the Japanese army in Manchuria fighting the Russians near the end of the war. Read all that stuff by all means. But read deeply on Gettysburg, for example, and what happens when you get the good terrain and you're a general but only two days in command, and you're there. And you're trying to stop one of the war’s most capable generals, Robert E. Lee, who's on the move deep into Pennsylvania.
But I'm not interested in a well-read officer as a second lieutenant who can't call for artillery support. He’s going to get his guys killed when he could solve a problem with 155-millimeter round. So start by mastering your basic skills, but concurrently begin your study of history so you sharpen your cunning.
MR: Do you ever read science fiction?
JM: Some – not much. But it's good for stretching your mind. There was Starship Troopers. Reading that is one of reasons I put together simulators for infantry with Hollywood being a big help, I might add. Oftentimes an infantryman’s first ethical or tactical decision against a thinking enemy is made in his first fire fight. You wouldn’t buy a 747 or an Apache attack helicopter without buying the simulators for the pilots, and yet we didn’t have high quality simulators for infantry.
85% of American casualties since World War II have been in the infantry units. If you can get them through their first five fire fights alive, their chances of surviving go up significantly. Now, there’s always random death on the battlefield – welcome to war. But I always thought if I could do 25 fire fights for them in various simulated circumstances that challenge them ethically and tactically before they ever heard the first shot fired, they would be more apt to make better decisions and survive. It won't be perfect, but what you want to do is try to put people through those paces before their first fight. Reading is part of your simulator when it’s done right.
MR: Did you ever play video games?
JM: No, not a whole lot.
MR: There’s that America’s Army video game, which is like the military’s version of COD [Call of Duty].
JM: I think they're good. It's just not something I did during my service. The video games weren't as sophisticated, frankly, as good as they are now.
Call Sign Chaos
MR: Thank you so much this has been fantastic.
JM: If Old Man Rivers [Bill Rivers, former speechwriter] said you're a good man, that's good enough reference for me. He was one great team player.
MR: Do you give nicknames for everyone?
JM: That's more of a military thing. His name was Rivers and looked about 12 years old, so we called him “Old Man Rivers.” We use such nicknames as call signs.
MR: Yours was “Chaos,” right?
JM: Yes.
MR: Did you like that or not?
JM: I actually adopted it – my irreverent troops gave it to me. I was a colonel out in the Mojave Desert, and I’d run down to my rather laconic Brooklyn-bred operations officer, a major, every day with a brilliant idea. One day leaving his office on his whiteboard, he had “CHAOS” written on it. I said, “What's that about?”
“Oh, you don't need to worry about that.”
“Oh yes I do.” And so I waterboarded him and got it out of him.
It was “Colonel Has Another Outstanding Suggestion.” He did not agree with the brilliance of all my ideas – very tongue in cheek. And so I thought I'd adopt it as a reminder too that I could create a lot of chaos in my own unit.
Some people thought it must be because I studied Sun Tzu and want to create chaos in the enemy's mind. If only it were so. Actually, it was my troops making fun of me.