Interview with Ashlee Vance
Ashlee Vance is a reporter. He is the host of Hello World on Bloomberg Television and the author of Elon Musk.
The Techie’s Tech
Contents
Max Raskin: So you cover tech — are you a gearhead? Do you love gadgets and things?
Ashlee Vance: I do love gadgets, although I don't know if I'd say I'm a gearhead. I've always wanted to be a gearhead, but I'm not a very hands-on capable person. And so I like to play with all the gadgets and test things out, but I've always dreamed of being more of the get down and dirty on the real geek layer kind of human and messing with making my own hardware and things like that. It turns out I'm just really bad at it.
MR: When you're testing something new, do you have a sandbox world with a throwaway email or phone number — and then you have your real life?
AV: I used to. I was probably geekier when I first started out as a tech writer. I was not a techie person growing up and in college…I was okay, but I was not super into it. When I first started out writing, I had to cover semiconductors and operating systems and databases and file systems and things like that. So I tried to actually learn a lot of that stuff. I would get Linux and Unix on my computer and try to learn how the command line interface went and read semiconductor textbooks. I think these days I just like to play with fun stuff. So I'm into gadgets and everything, but I'm not a world's expert on the latest and greatest stuff.
MR: I’m really curious what someone like you uses for their random stuff. What phone do you use?
AV: Well, I take a lot of grief for it these days. I use an Android Pixel 7 and I just bought a Pixel 8. So I come from old school appreciating open source software. And even though Android is led by this giant corporation, I still refuse to get an iPhone on freedom principles. And then I got a big ‘ole MacBook Pro, enormous, $4,000, full of memory and storage because I do so much video stuff these days.
MR: If you're just looking around your room right now, what gadgets do you see?
AV: Well, I've got the Opal C1 camera on here right now. It's like a pretty slick webcam. Gosh.
I've got a June Oven that's right behind me in my kitchen with computer recognition for food. And I got my Fitbit. That's about it.
MR: What model?
AV: This is a Charge 5.
MR: What are some apps on your phone that you use that you think most people haven’t heard of?
AV: The thing I found the most useful that I use especially for books and my big projects, is Roam Research. It’s vaguely like a note-taking app, but you can paste anything into this interface like documents, photos, PDFs. You can hyperlink all these terms in your notes. And so when I'm doing a book, I've just discovered this is an amazing way to organize stuff as you're going and it goes with your stream of consciousness. Anytime you're having thoughts, people to interview, things you want to explore, papers you want to save to read…
One last one that I do love that people probably would not know about, but there's this company, Teenage Engineering, that makes the most amazing stuff and they make this speaker called the OB-4 and it's really weird. It has amazing sound. And it records the last two hours of whatever has been playing on the machine automatically and there's this really cool little turntable knob. You could just reverse through stuff. It's a Bluetooth speaker. It does radio. It also plays all these really weird noises like metronome and zen noises.
Teenage Engineering makes the best stuff. It's expensive. So what I'm waiting for as my main recorder is the TP-7.
Frog Poison
MR: A lot of the Silicon Valley people do unusual stuff with their bodies like blood doping and microdosing or whatever — have there been anything you’ve adopted?
AV: Well I'm covering all this stuff right now, so I'm watching a lot of what these people do on a pretty extreme level. The things I have tried, when I was reporting a story, I went to a clinic in Colorado and I got IVs of NAD.
MR: What's NAD?
AV: NAD helps you in the processing of ATP inside of your body.
MR: Do you feel different after it?
AV: So I did that and then I also had different colored lasers shined into my veins in my arm. I think you probably have to do it more treatments to get the full effect. I did feel quite rejuvenated that day.
For a while I was taking metformin, the celebrity drug.
MR: Why did you stop?
AV: It was kind of tough on your stomach and mostly just because I kept going in and out on whether I believed it worked or not. Probably the most rejuvenating thing I've ever done is when I went to Chile and had a shaman burn holes in my arm and put this Kambo frog poison in. That was actually the most amazing, therapeutic thing I've experienced.
MR: Was it hallucinogenic?
AV: It's not visually hallucinogenic. It was oddly auditorily hallucinogenic and sort of put your mind in this very strange state. I was sitting with this shaman at a compound and I could hear individual bees flying around and my ears would fixate on one bee and even when my eyes were closed, I could follow its path around her farm.
She sang to me with her assistant on both sides of me and it was the most amazing musical experience I've ever had. It felt like they were just singing straight into my brain, and you end up taking this four hour nap after it. Some people have a bigger reaction than others. My face got extremely swollen to the point that my cheeks were so big I could barely see out of my eyes. They were laughing, "Oh. You've gotten the face of the frog." It's a frog poison and apparently I got the face of a frog.
MR: Do you take LSD?
AV: I have in the past and I dabble with mushrooms still.
God, Man, and Machine (and Elon Musk)
MR: Do you have a religious belief?
AV: No. I come from a couple generations of atheists.
I'm an atheist in my soul, but I've been doing hallucinogens for a very long time and it’s definitely a mind opening experience.
MR: Do you believe in the afterlife?
AV: I don't think so.
MR: Do you think that consciousness can be explained materially?
AV: I've spent the last few months reporting a lot on AI, longevity, science, and brain-computer interface technology and I'm starting to think that whatever I thought before about any of this stuff, especially consciousness and what it means to be human, is getting pretty confusing at this point.
MR: Can you say more about that?
AV: AI-brain computer interface is pretty fascinating. I don't know what the timeline is exactly on this. I have an optimistic timeline that I think is probably five to 10 years, but maybe this takes 20 to 50 years, but I think we're about to cure a lot of the worst, most debilitating diseases and conditions that afflict otherwise healthy people. Things like strokes and ALS and paralysis where people can’t talk or move. I believe we’re going to fix that and possibly in much shorter order than people expect.
I really don't know that much about how the brain works, but I think we're about to learn an awful lot and it's such an interesting time of these two things colliding. I think we're about to pull out really detailed information for the first time of the true inner-working of the mind.
MR: What did you think before? For instance, did you think before that we’re just machines and that if you can materially replicate the brain you can replicate consciousness. But now you think there’s something more. Or the other way? That you used to think that consciousness was a non-material phenomenon, but now you think we’re just robots.
AV: I think it's probably a little bit more the latter. I used to believe a lot more in free will and maybe the magic of consciousness in this inexplicable thing where we all feel we have a soul and it seemed like it would be really hard for science to replicate that. I think for the first time we're going to get much, much closer to reverse engineering the brain at the same time as we're producing these synthetic brains. I think the collision of those two things is going to make us ask a lot of questions about what it means to be human.
MR: It kind of sounds like you're going two different directions. On one hand you're open to a more kind of spiritual…
AV: No. Oh, God, no. I think we're going to turn out to be much more clinical and machine-like than we would like to believe.
MR: Do you believe the Kurzweil stuff that we could build immortality for ourselves or something?
AV: Oh I see what you're saying. Again, a lot of things have to happen and there's going to have to be pretty dramatic progress on the brain-computer interface stuff, but yeah. It's getting real weird really fast.
MR: So I think one of the best arguments for us being in simulation is something like if you were to set up a simulation, the time period you would set it is right before brain-computer, Matrix-type stuff became available. You’d be at the best stage of society with the most opportunity, but it wasn't so advanced that people knew that they could be in the machine. So maybe we're already in it. Do you think there's a chance we're already in the simulation?
AV: No. I like to not believe in the simulation.
When the AI stuff first started out, people were talking about it as neural networks. I just thought it was such bullshit. Just because you have some little computing nodes, this does not make it a neuron. But it's just getting a lot more interesting as these things get a lot bigger and I don't think it exactly mimics the brain, but it is close enough and does its own thing that I think it's almost a different kind of intelligence. For the first time, we're going to start learning a lot more.
A lot of the brain-computer interface work that's been done has been done on mice and primates and people that can't talk and provide feedback. Musk just announced that Neuralink shoved a pretty powerful brain computer interface into someone for the first time.
MR: Would you ever sign up for that?
AV: Not in its current instantiation. But it's kind of crazy because Elon built Neuralink as like, "Oh, we're merging man and machine and we're all going to be in the Matrix for the first huge chunk of time with all this stuff." It's going to be performing miracles that are quite different. People who can't communicate will be able to communicate. People who are paralyzed will be able to walk again. All these tracks are happening at the same time. I think this is really going to make us rethink a lot of things.
10,000 Hours with Elon Musk
MR: Are you tight with Musk? Do you talk to him?
AV: Well, we had a pretty long, tumultuous relationship. I'd say when I was doing the book, we were reporter-subject relationship where we got along well. I usually get along with people, but we weren't hanging out and I don't think anyone really could hang out with him. And then after the book came out, he really hated some of the things in the book, so we didn't talk for three years. And then probably in 2018, he called me out of the blue and we started talking a little bit. And now I run into him in person while I'm doing my reporting on Neuralink quite a bit and then we text every couple weeks just sort of back and forth random stuff.
MR: Have you gotten to be friends with any of your subjects?
AV: You're not really supposed to. The type of reporting I do I think is tricky because on this last book I spent five years with these people. So what's going to happen when you spend 10,000 hours with people over five years? You're going to get to know them. You're going just a reporter at a desk. That's the whole idea with the kind of journalism I'm trying to do.
MR: Did you read the Isaacson biography of Musk?
AV: No. I have not.
MR: Really?
AV: Yeah.
MR: For any reason?
AV: When you write a biography about someone, there's a lot of baggage that comes with it that I didn't expect because I hadn't done a biography before. I've been Elon-ed out in general for a long time. When you spend three years researching someone and thinking about them all the time, and then after that when you're the Elon guy for years…
I think professionally, I'm super competitive. Obviously, you don't own some subjects…some other human…but it was really annoying, if I'm honest, for somebody else to go in and write about it.
I saw some of the excerpts. I don't want to judge the book because I haven't read it, but some of the excerpts I saw looked like it was just parroting things that I had written so that was kind of annoying as well. So no, I just haven't read it yet. And also I probably will do another book about Elon and I don't like to have what other people think on things in my head.
MR: Is there anyone today that you're fascinated with that you would love to write something on?
AV: Yeah. I'm pursuing some new books, which I'm not going to tell you about, but the person I would love to do a book on who I've not been able to is this guy David Walsh. He's Tasmanian and he's the world's biggest gambler. He bets about a billion dollars a year on various things from horse racing to blackjack.
MR: Wow.
AV: But he's also this extreme eccentric. He built this Museum of Modern Art in Hobart, which is maybe the coolest, weirdest museum in the world, and I find him to just be this incredibly fascinating character.
MR: Are you friends with him?
AV: No. He's quite press averse, and I've been trying to get to him for a while. He wrote an autobiography, which is very good actually. It's extremely expensive. It's printed with gold edges on the paper.
MR: Really?
AV: Yeah. I don't think he really cared how many people read it, but I think I could do something different or at least like a documentary on him. He's fascinating, man. Maybe one of the world’s most eccentric people. I just love eccentric people.
The Bourdain Lifestyle
MR: Do you floss?
AV: Do I floss? I used to not floss. Last six months I committed. I've been flossing every day.
MR: Really?
AV: Yeah. Never in my life.
MR: You're really in a period of change in your life.
AV: This last book was crazy, man. It was five years of reporting. And I was shooting a documentary for HBO on the same subject at the same time. I just finished that.
I also just finished recording a new season of my TV show. So I put these two things to bed at once. It was amazing, but especially the book, it was like it got out of hand. It was a much bigger project than I expected.
MR: Do you use AI to write now?
AV: No. Oh God, no. No, no, no. That's the part I love the most is the writing.
MR: I want to ask you about your show and about traveling. You do the kind of Anthony Bourdain genre of show — did you know him? Did you meet him ever?
AV: I didn't know him. We write for the same imprints of Harper Collins Echo. So I always did want to meet him.
Geez, look: The whole world thinks he's a cool guy. I've read a couple biographies on him. Never had the chance to meet him, but just a really interesting life.
I have not done my show on the scale that he did. He traveled basically 250 days a year. I have done a smaller version of that where we go for four or five months…two countries a month…20 days away from home. And everyone always looks at it and they think, "Oh, this is such a glamorous job."
A lot of people, especially at work, they're like, "Oh. You're just on this boondoggle." It's an amazing job — in many ways the best job in the world. It’s incredibly long days. It's this very strange experience where when you're on the road you want to be home and then when you get home, you immediately want to be on the road again.
MR: I definitely don’t feel how you do — when I'm traveling, I want to be home and when I'm home I really want to be home.
AV: You get this addiction to it, and I can totally see how after he did that for 15 years or whatever, that you would have very little bearings on life and that the regular world would not be very interesting.
MR: I interviewed Andrew Zimmern. Do you know him? He's the Bizarre Foods guy. He talked about addiction in the interview. You should meet him.
AV: That would be cool.
What’s In Your Bag?
MR: Do you have any good gear that you use for traveling or any good tips for traveling? What do you use for a pillow?
AV: I'm pretty easy going, man. I can sleep anywhere. I would like to think my crew would tell you I'm pretty low maintenance. I don't have a ton of stuff.
The one thing, and it's not like I'm proud to admit this or anything, but last season I got so tired of packing and unpacking my suitcase I was like, "Screw it. I'm going to Steve Jobs this. I'm just going black shirts all the time no matter what." And now that is stuck in my life.
MR: Where did you get your black shirts from?
AV: I keep swapping. I do some Banana Republic, some of that Untuckit. I like the Untuckit ones the best I think.
MR: Are they Polos or are they just black T-shirts?
AV: Just black T-shirts for the most part. I was thinking of upgrading to Polos next season.
MR: And what pants do you wear?
AV: Mostly I like colorful pants and colorful shoes. I don't even know if I know what brands they are. I just buy a bunch of crap and then find what I like.
MR: What kind of suitcase do you have?
AV: It's a High Sierra duffle with some structure around it.
MR: Where's your backpack from?
AV: Topo Design.
MR: What's in your backpack right now?
AV: I can tell you exactly. My backpack's always the same. It's my laptop. Usually a couple used reporters' notebooks and a fresh reporter's notebook.
MR: What brand?
AV: Just a Steno pad. I usually have about 18 pens.
MR: Do you handwrite or use the audio recorder more?
AV: I am usually always recording. I do the laptop when I can, but a lot of times I'm walking around a laboratory or a factory or something like that.
MR: And you always use your phone to record? Or do you have a device?
AV: I just use a Sony digital recorder until I can get this Teenage Engineering one.
I've also got a big fat battery pack, an Anker.
I've got a mix of antidiarrhea pills, insect repellent, and I've got my well-used yellow fever vaccination card. I've got post-it notes. I always use post-It notes in books when I'm marking up pages.
MR: What kind of insect repellent?
AV: I use the high-end, strong Deet — Ultrathon.
MR: Want me to give you my one pro tip?
AV: Sure.
MR: Brewer’s yeast. Take brewer’s yeast.
Insects hate it.
AV: Okay.
I've got my huge bag of cords. This is also a Topo Designs bag. I love these little bags — they have everything…converters, cords, I got ibuprofen, I've got just a shit ton of every charger you could need, an eye mask.
I got a book on Fela Kuti.
MR: Why?
AV: Because we did an episode in Nigeria.
MR: What else?
AV: I got my Bose. Sunglasses. I’m a total nerd on this one. I'm not even proud of it — it's the Facebook Ray-Bans. You can record what you're looking at.
MR: Do you use that?
AV: We're trying it out for the show a little bit to do first person perspective.
Also I am proud of my wallet.
MR: Where's your wallet from?
AV: I got it on Etsy. It’s a space monkey.
MR: That’s a big wallet!
AV: Yeah. I got a lot of shit in there.
MR: You should clean that out. You shouldn't have so much.
AV: Well, I also end up with currency from all over the world and I forget to take it out.
MR: What's the first bill that that comes when you pick it up?
AV: Mexico. I got Mexico on top. I got some Nigerian Naira and I think I've got some shekels in here, man.
House of Strauss
MR: Who do you love reading for your news in the morning? Do you get any newspapers?
AV: No. In the past I did. I subscribe to the Times, the Post, and the Los Angeles Times. So I can read all of those. And the Wall Street Journal.
MR: Is that Bill Hicks behind you?
AV: Yeah.
MR: It’s just a ride. But that’s not what you think. You’re like, "It's not just a ride. You only get one shot at this and you're basically a computer. Fuck you."
AV: That quote still gives me comfort when I'm stressed out though. I feel in my heart that's true most of the time.
MR: Except when you really need it to be true, then it feels very real and not like a ride.
AV: Yeah.
MR: Do you read Stratechery or anything like that?
AV: My favorite dude to read at the moment is Ethan Sherwood Strauss. He writes the House of Strauss Substack. He writes a lot about sports and media. I just think he's really clever and quite different to everybody else.
MR: Are you political?
AV: I'm not usually political. Mostly I just think it's incredibly depressing what a joke most politicians are.
MR: Are you a libertarian? A lot of people in tech are libertarians.
AV: I think I'm sort of a cliché. I grew up like any good teenager should be as somewhere between a communist and a socialist and an anarchist. Emma Goldman was kind of my favorite writer in high school. And I liked the weird idealism of anarchism.
As I got older, I was just kind like your run-of-the-mill liberal, I think. And then now as I've gotten older and made some money, I'm like a cliché. I'm just a bit more conservative than I used to be. Not so hardcore libertarian. I don't think about politics a ton other than to be frustrated by it.
Trick Question
MR: This was so fun!
What's the first thing that comes to your mind right now?
AV: The first thing that comes to my mind right now? So many things right now.
Now it's like blank. This is a trick question, dude.
MR: There has to be something that comes into your mind!
AV: It was oddly a mountain.